| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | "Premium"(?) jobs do not necessarily pay above-market rates Thread poster: Mirko Mainardi
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Rebecca Davis 
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:47
French to English
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| Premium jobs: do they actually exist? | Jul 29, 2017 |
Has anyone actually been offered, let alone successfully bid for a "Premium" job paying above the ProZ market rates in the past 12 months?
I don't actually bother opening the "Premium" emails any more. Am I being too cynical?
| | | | | B2B payment terms in the EU | Jul 29, 2017 |
Mirko Mainardi wrote: Gabriele Demuth wrote:
I saw that post, but I didn't see anything suggesting a rate. With tourism text I generally assume the rate would be fairly low, but I expect "prestigious" airlines to care about their texts, have a style guide and pay fairly good rates, otherwise they couldn't really call themselves prestigious, really. A few months ago I was contacted by an agency for something similar. Long term collaboration to work on website content for a really prestigious airline for which they had been working for a few years. Well, what they offered me was €0.055 for translation and €0.016 for review. The icing on the cake? Payment 90 days EOM...
FYI, if the client is in Euorpe, the 90 days terms are theoretically not allowed.
By default, it's 30 days. If another term is agreed, it cannot be longer than 60 days EOM.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32011L0007
http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=be732a3f-f9c4-4a6d-86df-79f78fdd2721
[Edited at 2017-07-29 18:21 GMT]
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Rebecca Davis wrote:
Has anyone actually been offered, let alone successfully bid for a "Premium" job paying above the ProZ market rates in the past 12 months?
And not only the past 12 months - never!
Anyway, thank you, Mirko, for having brought up this issue.
[Bearbeitet am 2017-07-29 20:31 GMT]
| | | | | Can't agree with the barriers thing | Jul 29, 2017 |
Many companies are just happy buying shit. It is not that they are fooled into buying shit. They know they are buying shit and they love it.
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 11:47
Member (2007)
English
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| I don't agree with this logic | Jul 30, 2017 |
David GAY wrote:
You simply can't expect translation of cooking recipes and touristic texts to pay as much as
high level legal, financial, medical or engineering translations! If you don't understand this,
you'll end up translating medical texts for the price of cooking recipes!
I see that others have already taken issue with that idea, and rightly so. There must be many medical and legal texts that are totally straightforward - I know for myself that visits to my Spanish doctor go quite well: I look up a few words before going, but many terms are pretty standard across English, French and Spanish. I suspect that many general medical texts for non-critical purposes actually deserve a lower rate than a really well-crafted tourism text that's going to encourage people to flock to a particular area or hotel.
Those of us who specialise in non-technical areas are just as much specialists as those who specialise in technical areas and far, far removed from those who will happily do a quick PEMT job on GT output, whatever the subject area. My clients certainly wouldn't be happy with that, and yes, I do command the EUR 0.12 per source word that I display on my ProZ.com profile.
I think it's sad to hear a fellow professional translator ridicule those of us involved in areas he clearly knows next to nothing about, other than as a layman. Yes, everyone has been a tourist and baked a cake. Those experiences alone don't qualify anyone to translate tourism or culinary texts at a high level. Fortunately some clients are very well aware of that.
| | | | | a matter of stakes and risks involved | Jul 30, 2017 |
Sheila Wilson wrote: David GAY wrote:
You simply can't expect translation of cooking recipes and touristic texts to pay as much as
high level legal, financial, medical or engineering translations! If you don't understand this,
you'll end up translating medical texts for the price of cooking recipes! I see that others have already taken issue with that idea, and rightly so. There must be many medical and legal texts that are totally straightforward - I know for myself that visits to my Spanish doctor go quite well: I look up a few words before going, but many terms are pretty standard across English, French and Spanish. I suspect that many general medical texts for non-critical purposes actually deserve a lower rate than a really well-crafted tourism text that's going to encourage people to flock to a particular area or hotel. Those of us who specialise in non-technical areas are just as much specialists as those who specialise in technical areas and far, far removed from those who will happily do a quick PEMT job on GT output, whatever the subject area. My clients certainly wouldn't be happy with that, and yes, I do command the EUR 0.12 per source word that I display on my ProZ.com profile. I think it's sad to hear a fellow professional translator ridicule those of us involved in areas he clearly knows next to nothing about, other than as a layman. Yes, everyone has been a tourist and baked a cake. Those experiences alone don't qualify anyone to translate tourism or culinary texts at a high level. Fortunately some clients are very well aware of that.
You don't seem to understand that it's a matter of stakes and risks involved. Whether you like it or not, a notary, a lawyer, a physician earns more than a housewife or a cook. The level of education required is much higher. That's why it's more difficult to find a qualified translator in these fields. As a translator, you cannot accept to translate a 20000 word medical document and say to your outsourcer: I can translate it as long as it's easy... Besides, pharmaceutical companies, banks, and law firms can afford to pay prices that are much higher.
[Modifié le 2017-07-30 21:31 GMT]
[Modifié le 2017-07-30 21:33 GMT]
[Modifié le 2017-07-30 22:00 GMT]
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 06:47
Spanish to English
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Mirko Mainardi wrote: Hi all, Actually, I posted this under "ProZ.com job systems" specifically because this was about the job system and the usage of the "Premium" label. Before posting this I checked the fora and found a thread dating back to 2007 where similar concerns were raised (and I'm sure there'll be others lying around). So, this was not meant as the umpteenth thread about low rates and the end of the (translation) world. David GAY wrote:
The market rates are not significant in themselves. It all depends on the field you work in.
You can't expect translation of cooking recipes and touristic translation to pay as much as
legal, financial, medical or engineering translations! And yet, that's what ProZ own FAQ about "Premium jobs" (as quoted) says: "at or above market rates for the given language pair". Besides, considering we don't have any other reference here than ProZ own "community rates", we can only use those as a reference... Dr. Matthias Schauen wrote:
Mirko, according to the FAQs you could send a support ticket: Yes, I did that. The reply was: "I will contact the outsourcer regarding the matter".
Did the site representative ever get back to you, or is the matter still being looked into?
| | | | | "Premium" jobs are in a beta stage, and currently not subject to control by site staff | Jul 31, 2017 |
Hello,
I wanted to weigh in and clarify the status of "Premium" jobs. "Premium" jobs are a feature of ProZ.com Connect, an alternative sourcing platform within the site, different from classic job postings and freelancer directory. ProZ.com Connect is still in a beta stage, and as such has never been fully released.
In that context, "Premium" job postings are an option that can be selected when posting a job through Con... See more Hello,
I wanted to weigh in and clarify the status of "Premium" jobs. "Premium" jobs are a feature of ProZ.com Connect, an alternative sourcing platform within the site, different from classic job postings and freelancer directory. ProZ.com Connect is still in a beta stage, and as such has never been fully released.
In that context, "Premium" job postings are an option that can be selected when posting a job through Connect. As stated here, job posters are the ones who decide if they will mark a job as a premium offer. This is not subject to control by site staff, but we will contact an outsourcer to point out possible discrepancies between the "Premium" category they chose and the offer they made. That is what site staff has done in this case.
I hope this explains, and apologize for the confusion this has caused. Please let me know if you have any question.
Best regards,
Alejandro ▲ Collapse
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 11:47
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| What exactly do housewives have to do with the price of translations? | Jul 31, 2017 |
David GAY wrote:
You don't seem to understand that it's a matter of stakes and risks involved. Whether you like it or not, a notary, a lawyer, a physician earns more than a housewife or a cook. The level of education required is much higher. That's why it's more difficult to find a qualified translator in these fields.
I see. Your argument is based on a person's worth being solely in proportion to their university studies. I know it's a widely held opinion in France. Of course, a housewife may be uneducated, or she may have a shed-load of diplomas, whereas Sir Richard Branson has nothing but honorary ones.
As a translator, you cannot accept to translate a 20000 word medical document and say to your outsourcer: I can translate it as long as it's easy...
And as a translator, you cannot accept to translate a 20,000-word tourism document and say to your outsourcer: I'll just translate the source text accurately.
Not if it's a high-end tourism text for a discerning end-client, anyway. They'll want the message behind the words to be reproduced, in a style that will be highly attractive to the intended readership. They aren't just looking for an accurate translation of the words. That would indeed be easy - and cheap.
Besides, pharmaceutical companies, banks, and law firms can afford to pay prices that are much higher.
Maybe; maybe not.
Anyway, we clearly see the world from very different perspectives, so we'll just have to agree to differ.
| | | | | who uses recipes | Jul 31, 2017 |
Sheila Wilson wrote: David GAY wrote:
You don't seem to understand that it's a matter of stakes and risks involved. Whether you like it or not, a notary, a lawyer, a physician earns more than a housewife or a cook. The level of education required is much higher. That's why it's more difficult to find a qualified translator in these fields. I see. Your argument is based on a person's worth being solely in proportion to their university studies. I know it's a widely held opinion in France. Of course, a housewife may be uneducated, or she may have a shed-load of diplomas, whereas Sir Richard Branson has nothing but honorary ones. As a translator, you cannot accept to translate a 20000 word medical document and say to your outsourcer: I can translate it as long as it's easy... And as a translator, you cannot accept to translate a 20,000-word tourism document and say to your outsourcer: I'll just translate the source text accurately. Not if it's a high-end tourism text for a discerning end-client, anyway. They'll want the message behind the words to be reproduced, in a style that will be highly attractive to the intended readership. They aren't just looking for an accurate translation of the words. That would indeed be easy - and cheap. Besides, pharmaceutical companies, banks, and law firms can afford to pay prices that are much higher. Maybe; maybe not. Anyway, we clearly see the world from very different perspectives, so we'll just have to agree to differ.
Who uses recipes except housewives and cooks? Who are the clients?
I know plenty of agencies specialized in legal, financial, medical translations. They make A LOT of money.
I don't know any agencies specialized in culinary translation or tourism. There must be some reason. |
[Modifié le 2017-07-31 15:23 GMT]
[Modifié le 2017-07-31 15:28 GMT]
[Modifié le 2017-07-31 15:29 GMT]
| | | | Mirko Mainardi
Italy
Local time: 12:47
Member
English to Italian
TOPIC STARTER
Alejandro Cavalitto wrote:
I wanted to weigh in and clarify the status of "Premium" jobs. "Premium" jobs are a feature of ProZ.com Connect, an alternative sourcing platform within the site, different from classic job postings and freelancer directory. ProZ.com Connect is still in a beta stage, and as such has never been fully released.
There are threads (e.g. http://bel.proz.com/forum/prozcom_job_systems/85603-project_connect:_special_and_exclusive_opportunities.html ) about "Premium" jobs and "Connect" dating back to 2007. How can something introduced (at least) 10 years ago be in beta stage?
At any rate, this doesn't seem to work as intended, or as advertised...
| | | | Mirko Mainardi
Italy
Local time: 12:47
Member
English to Italian
TOPIC STARTER
Robert Forstag wrote:
Did the site representative ever get back to you, or is the matter still being looked into?
And the ticket was closed, so I highly doubt it (actually, it was closed even the first time they replied, asking me to give them the full headers of the mail I received through their platform...).
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Mirko Mainardi
Italy
Local time: 12:47
Member
English to Italian
TOPIC STARTER | EU Directive | Jul 31, 2017 |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne wrote: Mirko Mainardi wrote: Gabriele Demuth wrote:
I saw that post, but I didn't see anything suggesting a rate. With tourism text I generally assume the rate would be fairly low, but I expect "prestigious" airlines to care about their texts, have a style guide and pay fairly good rates, otherwise they couldn't really call themselves prestigious, really. A few months ago I was contacted by an agency for something similar. Long term collaboration to work on website content for a really prestigious airline for which they had been working for a few years. Well, what they offered me was €0.055 for translation and €0.016 for review. The icing on the cake? Payment 90 days EOM... FYI, if the client is in Euorpe, the 90 days terms are theoretically not allowed. By default, it's 30 days. If another term is agreed, it cannot be longer than 60 days EOM. http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32011L0007 http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=be732a3f-f9c4-4a6d-86df-79f78fdd2721
Thanks Nikki, I'm aware of that directive, but sadly it doesn't stop (some) outsourcers from 'offering' such terms, as in the end I believe there can be no automatism in its application (nor fines, for that matter) in the legal systems of the countries that adopted it. I guess the vendor would need to actively sue an outsourcer to have their rights upheld in court, and knowingly signing an agreement which contains unconscionable clauses only to sue the other party to have them declared unenforceable seems hardly sensible or... useful.
Before the one I mentioned in my previous post, another outsourcer offered me 90 days EOM (+ 10 further days), so I replied telling them that (but not only that) was unacceptable and also cited that very same directive.
The saddest part of it all was that, when I told them I wouldn't sign that agreement, the VM replied saying that was their "standard contract", which their vendors usually signed without complaint, and which they had drafted together with none other than a category association (grouping 72 agency members, all Italian save one...). Go figure... 
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Mirko Mainardi wrote: Before the one I mentioned in my previous post, another outsourcer offered me 90 days EOM (+ 10 further days), so I replied telling them that (but not only that) was unacceptable and also cited that very same directive. The saddest part of it all was that, when I told them I wouldn't sign that agreement, the VM replied saying that was their "standard contract", which their vendors usually signed without complaint, and which they had drafted together with none other than a category association (grouping 72 agency members, all Italian save one...). Go figure...
Outsourcers, when they are told similar things, seem to be utterly flabbergasted (in my experience) , but we must never give up: "constant dropping wears the stone", as the saying goes, and you never know... We would never work for them anyway and have nothing to lose, so hopefully, if everyone sends the same message, sooner or later maybe they'll get it!
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 11:47
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Oh really! In 2017? | Jul 31, 2017 |
David GAY wrote:
Who uses recipes except housewives and cooks?
I can't believe I'm hearing that attitude today. Even way back in 1967 - fifty years ago - when I was entering my teens and my older brother was regularly cooking the family's Sunday roast, it was beginning to sound dated.
Fortunately, it's way off topic.
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