Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
donner une valeur autonome au détail dans toute représentation
English translation:
imparts a distinct value to the details within the context of the whole composition
Added to glossary by
Christopher Crockett
Jun 2, 2017 18:00
7 yrs ago
French term
donner une valeur autonome au détail dans toute représentation
French to English
Art/Literary
Archaeology
ancient art
Hi again!
DOC: 1907 Museum catalog of ancient Egyptian mirrors. Catalog entry.
CONTEXT: 44078. Mirror disk. -- Bronze. -- (Pl. XVIII). La netteté du dessin, à défaut de la correction, rend ce disque intéressant. Il est curieux de noter que dans les colonnes hathoriques du type campaniforme à fût fasciculé, les petites tiges surmontées d'un bouton qui, dans la structure réelle de la colonne, sont insérées symétriquement dans le faisceau des tiges, en sont ici nettement séparées en vertu de la formule scripturale du dessin égyptien qui ***donne une valeur autonome au détail dans toute représentation.*** De cette manière, d'ailleurs, les boutons concourent plus efficacement à la décoration.
Though this is NOT the same mirror, this one shows the same column capital which my author is describing. -- http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/coll...
ATTEMPT: Curiously enough, in the hathoric columns of the campaniform type with fasciculated shaft, the small stalks surmounted by a bud which, in an actual column, are inserted symmetrically into the bundle of stalks, are here distinctly separated from it in accordance with the formula for drawing sanctioned by/consecrated in Egyptian scripture that ***gives value to the individual details throughout a representation.*** This way, moreover, the buds contribute more effectively to the decoration.
Maybe: gives individual significance to every detail in any given representation?
ISSUE: Not sure I've jumbled the words around accurately, but I can't think of what else it could mean.
Thanks in advance for any corrections or suggestions!
DOC: 1907 Museum catalog of ancient Egyptian mirrors. Catalog entry.
CONTEXT: 44078. Mirror disk. -- Bronze. -- (Pl. XVIII). La netteté du dessin, à défaut de la correction, rend ce disque intéressant. Il est curieux de noter que dans les colonnes hathoriques du type campaniforme à fût fasciculé, les petites tiges surmontées d'un bouton qui, dans la structure réelle de la colonne, sont insérées symétriquement dans le faisceau des tiges, en sont ici nettement séparées en vertu de la formule scripturale du dessin égyptien qui ***donne une valeur autonome au détail dans toute représentation.*** De cette manière, d'ailleurs, les boutons concourent plus efficacement à la décoration.
Though this is NOT the same mirror, this one shows the same column capital which my author is describing. -- http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/coll...
ATTEMPT: Curiously enough, in the hathoric columns of the campaniform type with fasciculated shaft, the small stalks surmounted by a bud which, in an actual column, are inserted symmetrically into the bundle of stalks, are here distinctly separated from it in accordance with the formula for drawing sanctioned by/consecrated in Egyptian scripture that ***gives value to the individual details throughout a representation.*** This way, moreover, the buds contribute more effectively to the decoration.
Maybe: gives individual significance to every detail in any given representation?
ISSUE: Not sure I've jumbled the words around accurately, but I can't think of what else it could mean.
Thanks in advance for any corrections or suggestions!
Proposed translations
(English)
4 | imparts a distinct value to the details within the context of the whole composition | Christopher Crockett |
Change log
Jun 7, 2017 16:54: Christopher Crockett Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
2 days 20 hrs
Selected
imparts a distinct value to the details within the context of the whole composition
It is worth noting that these campaniform-type Hathor columns, with their “fasciculated” shafts made up of a bundle of stalks, contain smaller stalks topped by a bud which, within the real structure of the column, are inserted symmetrically into the bundle of the stalks but are here distinctly separated from it, according to the accepted canon of Egyptian design, which imparts a distinct value to the details within the context of the whole composition. By being represented in such a way, the contribution of the buds is more efficacious in the overall composition.
(I have to say that the columns which are in your British Museum example most definitely do NOT appear to me to be of the "fasciculated" type; though, perhaps, this is because the small scale did not permit detailed articulation --of either the large stalks or, more relevant to the present case, the smaller stalks with their separate buds.)
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Note added at 2 days21 hrs (2017-06-05 15:15:32 GMT)
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Note that there is a somewhat "technical" point which I believe Bénéditi might be making when he says, "en vertu de la formule scripturale du dessin égyptien," and which I have chosen to translate as "according to the accepted canon of Egyptian design."
I think that he is pointing out that the accepted "canon" of Egyptian design (which was arrived at by at least the late 4th millennium B.C. and persisted down through Roman times) does not at all depend upon what we would call "realism," but rather is concerned with "accurately" displaying the various elements of any given composition by imparting to all those individual elements the **integrity** of their "true" form. It is this "vital" principle of "design" (i.e., depiction) which trumps our own, quite naive and obviously simplistic, concept of "realism."
Thus, for example, the eyes of all figures have the basic (oval) shape of an eye --no matter from what point of view they are being "seen" (frontally or from the side); or the hands of all figures are depicted as having five fingers (+ a thumb), no matter from what position they might be viewed.
The mere "accident" of a point of view (which might obscure some elements of the hand) could not possibly be more important than the obvious FACT that all hands, by their very nature, have five fingers, and that it is *that* which is part of their *true* essence.
I believe that is what he is driving at when he says that the depiction of the buds "donne une valeur autonome au détail dans toute représentation" --"imparts a distinct value to the details within the context of the whole composition."
It's a somewhat difficult point for us post-Renaissance westerners --with our (to Egyptians) naive and quite nonsensical notion of "realism" to understand.
But the basic idea of what constitutes "realism" also applies to much of the art of the Western (and Byzantine) Middle Ages, and it is really impossible to understand what is going on in that art during the 1,000+ years of its flourishing unless this fundamental concept is appreciated.
Otherwise, one is left with such ridiculous notions that the Egyptians (or the Medievals) couldn't "realistically" --i.e., NATURALISTICALLY-- represent the phenomenal world because they were just "too dumb" to do so.
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Note added at 2 days21 hrs (2017-06-05 15:35:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I'm virtually sure that this "technical" concept of the very nature of what constituted "realism" and the nature of the "Egyptian canon of Design" --or one very close to it-- accounts for Bénéditi's curious language here (and, thus, your problem trying to understand what the hell he was trying to say, Angela).
I.e., you are not dealing with just a text intent on a simple description of an object in this case, but rather with a description which is "loaded" with a whole theoretical aesthetic "system" behind it.
This theoretical framework (for looking at and explaining the representational art of various cultures, like that of Egypt or the Middle Ages) was in the process of being worked out in the second half of the 19th century, and was elaborated and refined through the first half of the 20th c. (suchlike "subjective" "speculations" have since fallen out of favor in our own benighted epoch) --primarily by German art historians but also by the French, and the best scholars of the time (among which we must count Bénéditi) were aware of and influenced by those very fundamental ideas.
(I have to say that the columns which are in your British Museum example most definitely do NOT appear to me to be of the "fasciculated" type; though, perhaps, this is because the small scale did not permit detailed articulation --of either the large stalks or, more relevant to the present case, the smaller stalks with their separate buds.)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days21 hrs (2017-06-05 15:15:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Note that there is a somewhat "technical" point which I believe Bénéditi might be making when he says, "en vertu de la formule scripturale du dessin égyptien," and which I have chosen to translate as "according to the accepted canon of Egyptian design."
I think that he is pointing out that the accepted "canon" of Egyptian design (which was arrived at by at least the late 4th millennium B.C. and persisted down through Roman times) does not at all depend upon what we would call "realism," but rather is concerned with "accurately" displaying the various elements of any given composition by imparting to all those individual elements the **integrity** of their "true" form. It is this "vital" principle of "design" (i.e., depiction) which trumps our own, quite naive and obviously simplistic, concept of "realism."
Thus, for example, the eyes of all figures have the basic (oval) shape of an eye --no matter from what point of view they are being "seen" (frontally or from the side); or the hands of all figures are depicted as having five fingers (+ a thumb), no matter from what position they might be viewed.
The mere "accident" of a point of view (which might obscure some elements of the hand) could not possibly be more important than the obvious FACT that all hands, by their very nature, have five fingers, and that it is *that* which is part of their *true* essence.
I believe that is what he is driving at when he says that the depiction of the buds "donne une valeur autonome au détail dans toute représentation" --"imparts a distinct value to the details within the context of the whole composition."
It's a somewhat difficult point for us post-Renaissance westerners --with our (to Egyptians) naive and quite nonsensical notion of "realism" to understand.
But the basic idea of what constitutes "realism" also applies to much of the art of the Western (and Byzantine) Middle Ages, and it is really impossible to understand what is going on in that art during the 1,000+ years of its flourishing unless this fundamental concept is appreciated.
Otherwise, one is left with such ridiculous notions that the Egyptians (or the Medievals) couldn't "realistically" --i.e., NATURALISTICALLY-- represent the phenomenal world because they were just "too dumb" to do so.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days21 hrs (2017-06-05 15:35:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I'm virtually sure that this "technical" concept of the very nature of what constituted "realism" and the nature of the "Egyptian canon of Design" --or one very close to it-- accounts for Bénéditi's curious language here (and, thus, your problem trying to understand what the hell he was trying to say, Angela).
I.e., you are not dealing with just a text intent on a simple description of an object in this case, but rather with a description which is "loaded" with a whole theoretical aesthetic "system" behind it.
This theoretical framework (for looking at and explaining the representational art of various cultures, like that of Egypt or the Middle Ages) was in the process of being worked out in the second half of the 19th century, and was elaborated and refined through the first half of the 20th c. (suchlike "subjective" "speculations" have since fallen out of favor in our own benighted epoch) --primarily by German art historians but also by the French, and the best scholars of the time (among which we must count Bénéditi) were aware of and influenced by those very fundamental ideas.
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you!"
Discussion
In various scientific uses = fasciculate adj.
1777 Hunter: The fasciculated surfaces in the heart.
1777 T. Pennant Brit. Zool.: Asterias. Sea-Star..with twelve broad rays..roughened with fasciculated long papillæ on the upper part.
1788 Swedenborg, Wisdom of Angels: The Fibres..successively collect themselves into Nerves, and when they are fasciculated or become Nerves [etc.].
1835–6 Todd's Cycl. Anat. & Physiol.: The muscular system consists of reddish and whitish fasciculated fibres.
1853 A. von Humboldt, Personal Narr. Trav. Amer. III.: We found some [veins]..full of small fasciculated crystals of rutile titanite.
1854 S. Thomson, Wanderings among Wild Flowers: The fasciculated or bundled [root]..we see in the bird's-nest orchis.
From:
† FASCICULATE, v. (Obs.)
trans. ‘To tie up into a bundle or fascicle’ (Blount Glossogr. 1656–81).
1656 T. Blount Glossographia Fasciculate, to tye up into a bundle or Fascicle.
1676 E. . Coles Eng. Dict. Fasciculate, to tye up into a bundle.
That's it, far as the OED is concerned.
Awkward (i.e., ghastly), Obsolete, Obscure.
Don't use it --without an explanation.
http://tinyurl.com/yb2ee29b
The reason I have never encountered it before is that my knowledge of the terminology specific to Egyptian art is somewhat limited --and it seems that this quite awkward "fasciculted column" terminology has been rather scarce in the later literature, apparently being replaced by the more elegant (though, perhaps, less exact?) "compound column."
Here, again, is the Translator's Dilemma: Bénéditi uses this term, which appears to have been more common (at least among specialists) in his own day than it is in ours; and it is unfamiliar to some otherwise quite literate art historians (though, perhaps, not to specialists in Egyptian art).
Should the translator, in the name of being faithful to her text, use this awkward, rather obscure term (forcing the uninitiated to head to the dictionary or to google --or should she use another term (but *which* other term?) or use it and add some explanatory phrasing to make it clearer?
In any case, there is no need to translate directly from the Coptic.
Why not a "fasciculesque shaft"?
I don't have time just at the moment to address the primary question you pose here.