Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
coffre de fabrique
English translation:
treasure chest
Added to glossary by
Miranda Joubioux (X)
Jun 22, 2007 10:34
16 yrs ago
French term
coffre de fabrique
French to English
Other
Religion
History/Catholic Church in Brittany
Outre un ensemble de trois autels et retables, des confessionnaux et plusieurs statues, l’église abrite un coffre de fabrique
Le terme « fabrique » désigne à la fois l’ensemble des biens d’une paroisse et la personne en charge de leur gestion. Les archives, l’argent et les objets précieux (ciboire, calice…) étaient conservés dans ce type de coffres comme celui-ci. Les trois serrures témoignent du partage du pouvoir entre les différents fabriques, encore appelés fabriciens, chacun détenant une des clés ouvrant le coffre.
I have no idea as to how to translate this.
Le terme « fabrique » désigne à la fois l’ensemble des biens d’une paroisse et la personne en charge de leur gestion. Les archives, l’argent et les objets précieux (ciboire, calice…) étaient conservés dans ce type de coffres comme celui-ci. Les trois serrures témoignent du partage du pouvoir entre les différents fabriques, encore appelés fabriciens, chacun détenant une des clés ouvrant le coffre.
I have no idea as to how to translate this.
Proposed translations
(English)
3 | treasure coffer/trunk/chest | Euqinimod (X) |
3 +1 | church chest | Maudarg (X) |
4 | church coffer | Melzie |
4 | notes à l'appui de "church chest" | danièle davout |
4 | cabinet holding the church treasury | Christopher Crockett |
Change log
Jun 27, 2007 06:27: Miranda Joubioux (X) changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/54404">Miranda Joubioux (X)'s</a> old entry - "coffre de fabrique"" to ""treasure coffer/trunk/chest""
Proposed translations
18 mins
Selected
treasure coffer/trunk/chest
Une suggestion.
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Note added at 9 heures (2007-06-22 19:48:01 GMT)
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1. gen. A repository or place for keeping things; a storehouse, a treasury; a cupboard (either in the recess of a wall or as a separate article of furniture); a safe; a locker, a press. 1393 Langland P. Pl. C. xvii. 88 Auarice haþ almaries and yre-bounden cofres. 1463 in Bury Wills (1850) 29 The same keye to be leyd in an almarye+the almerye where the seid keyes shal lyn in. 1534 in Eng. Ch. Furn. (1866) 187 Item a playne awmery with ij litill chambers wythin with too lockes. 1535 Coverdale Jer. xxxviii. 11 Vnder an almery [Wyclif celer, 1611 treasurie] he gat olde ragges & worne cloutes. 1564 in Wills & Inv. N. Counties (1835) 219 A littel paynted ambry with ij doores. 1571 Ibid. 361 Ij owld chystes ijs. vjd.+ij armoires jl. 1583 Stanyhurst Aeneis ii. (Arb.) 44 In this od hudge ambry [i.e. the Trojan horse] they ramd a number of hardye Tough knights. 1591 Percivall Span. Dict., Alhazéna, a hole in a wal to set things in, an Ambrie+Almário, an armorie, an ambrie, Armarium. 18+ Wordsworth in Myers Life (1881) 3, I possess+an almery, made in 1525, at the expense of a William Wordsworth. 1835 Beckford Recoll. 48 A press or ambery elaborately carved. 1842 Gresley Forest of Ard. 66 An almery or arched recess of compact brickwork, so constructed as to be impervious to fire. 1868 Morris Jason viii. 444 A little aumbrye, with a door o'er-gilt.
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Note added at 9 heures (2007-06-22 19:48:01 GMT)
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1. gen. A repository or place for keeping things; a storehouse, a treasury; a cupboard (either in the recess of a wall or as a separate article of furniture); a safe; a locker, a press. 1393 Langland P. Pl. C. xvii. 88 Auarice haþ almaries and yre-bounden cofres. 1463 in Bury Wills (1850) 29 The same keye to be leyd in an almarye+the almerye where the seid keyes shal lyn in. 1534 in Eng. Ch. Furn. (1866) 187 Item a playne awmery with ij litill chambers wythin with too lockes. 1535 Coverdale Jer. xxxviii. 11 Vnder an almery [Wyclif celer, 1611 treasurie] he gat olde ragges & worne cloutes. 1564 in Wills & Inv. N. Counties (1835) 219 A littel paynted ambry with ij doores. 1571 Ibid. 361 Ij owld chystes ijs. vjd.+ij armoires jl. 1583 Stanyhurst Aeneis ii. (Arb.) 44 In this od hudge ambry [i.e. the Trojan horse] they ramd a number of hardye Tough knights. 1591 Percivall Span. Dict., Alhazéna, a hole in a wal to set things in, an Ambrie+Almário, an armorie, an ambrie, Armarium. 18+ Wordsworth in Myers Life (1881) 3, I possess+an almery, made in 1525, at the expense of a William Wordsworth. 1835 Beckford Recoll. 48 A press or ambery elaborately carved. 1842 Gresley Forest of Ard. 66 An almery or arched recess of compact brickwork, so constructed as to be impervious to fire. 1868 Morris Jason viii. 444 A little aumbrye, with a door o'er-gilt.
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "A difficult one to grade - Thanks to everyone, I managed to work "treasure chest" into my text, although church chest would probably have been better in other contexts. Not enough room to explain here, see comments above."
+1
32 mins
church chest
Could be a solution, e.g. as in
The most important documents in the Church Chest are the Registers, which in the case of Papplewick begin in 1661; and in the case of Linby, 1692. ...
www.nottshistory.org.uk/butler1953/linby8.htm - 33k - Cached - Similar pages
The most important documents in the Church Chest are the Registers, which in the case of Papplewick begin in 1661; and in the case of Linby, 1692. ...
www.nottshistory.org.uk/butler1953/linby8.htm - 33k - Cached - Similar pages
Note from asker:
Yes, but I'm not sure that it contained the chalice and ciborium too. |
2 hrs
church coffer
now sometimes used to mean collection box. Used to be where all important documents and plate etc. were kept
2 hrs
notes à l'appui de "church chest"
The alms of the people were dropped through holes in the lid of the church chest which had three different locks and keys, so that it could only be opened in the presence of the vicar and both churchwardens.
http://www.thrale.com/history/english/sandridge/historic_san...
http://www.thrale.com/history/english/sandridge/historic_san...
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Christopher Crockett
: Yes, this was my first thought (see my answer), but I don't believe that that is what is intended in Miranda's text.
11 mins
|
1 hr
cabinet holding the church treasury
"Fabrique" ususally refers --in the art hysterical literature-- to the physical fabric of the building itself, so my first thought when I saw your term was that this was the collection box in the church for the maintence of the building.
From your context it's simply not clear that this is not what is intended in your text, so that's still a possibility.
But from the explanation of "fabrique" (which I assume is *not* in your text, per se) it would seem that it's a question of a large "chest" which held the precious liturgical objects of the church.
Euqinimod's "treasure chest" conveys something of this meaning, but I believe that this object would not have been what we think of as a "chest" --a large box which sits on the floor, it's contents stacked higgly-piggly inside-- but rather would have been a substantial piece of furniture, a large cabinet, with strong (lockable) doors and shelves inside to hold the metalwork, reliquaries, etc.
(Against this interpretation, however, might be the use of "coffre" to refer to the object, rather than "armoire." It's really an armoire that I have in mind.)
I know of no example of these which have survived from the middle ages in France, but have seen pictures of some in German churches and will try to find one on the web somewhere.
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Note added at 1 hr (2007-06-22 12:28:28 GMT)
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Although ordinary readers might think that "treasury" refers to the *money* which the church had on hand, it refers, of course, to the precious objects (usually in "minor arts" media, metalwork, ivories, perhaps even manuscripts) which the church possessed.
In today's larger churches it usually costs a few francs to "visite le tresor," a room in the church set aside for the display of the "treasury," which might include the ancient cabinet which originally contained it, if such survived.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2007-06-22 12:35:01 GMT)
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Here's an 18th c. engraving of the "Tresor de Saint Denis" which conveys something of what I have in mind:
http://vrcoll.fa.pitt.edu/medart/image/France/sdenis/felebie...
However, I believe that this display reflects more of an early modern layout than would have been the case in the Middle Ages.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2007-06-22 12:40:12 GMT)
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A modern German "Schatzkammer" display (I'm still looking for a surviving "coffre":
http://www.meschede.de/kultur/sehenswuerdigkeiten/kernstadt_...
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Note added at 4 hrs (2007-06-22 14:55:44 GMT)
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Here's the kind of armoire I have in mind:
http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/roe/roe16.jpg
and
http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/champeaux/champ36.jpg
Rather than something like this:
http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/roe/roe02.jpg
or
http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/roe/roe10-1.jpg
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Note added at 6 hrs (2007-06-22 17:03:42 GMT)
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This "definition" of "fabrique" is not one which I am familiar with, but here goes:
In addition to the three altars and retables, the confessionals and several statues, the church has a cabinet holding the "fabric."
The term "fabric" refers to both the property of a parish and to the person in charge of its care. The archives, the metalwork and precious liturgical objects (ciborium chalice, etc.) were preserved in this kind of cabinet, the three locks corresponding to the division of power between the three different caretakers ("fabriciens") of these properties, each of whom would have one of the keys which could open the cabinet.
It's not clear to me from this if the "coffre" was a simple "chest" or the more elaborate "armoire"/cabinet I have in mind --this might depend upon the size of the church, its importance and the state of the survival of the objects concerned.
If it were simply a question of the "archives" (i.e., the written documents) belonging to the church, the object in question would be called (in U.K. English) a "muniments chest/cabinet."
In a large and substantial ecclesiastical institution (e.g., a cathedral) the Chancellor of the chapter would be in charge of those records.
But here you've apparently got other stuff as well, the metalwork and the liturgical impliments --these would probably be in the charge of the sacristan or "chefecier" (_capicerius_ in Latin).
Since you've got three locks, it sounds like all three fellows would have had to be present --with their keys-- to open the thing.
This is a security measure, necessary in a time in which lots of stuff that wasn't Nailed Down tended to Go Walkabout.
From your context it's simply not clear that this is not what is intended in your text, so that's still a possibility.
But from the explanation of "fabrique" (which I assume is *not* in your text, per se) it would seem that it's a question of a large "chest" which held the precious liturgical objects of the church.
Euqinimod's "treasure chest" conveys something of this meaning, but I believe that this object would not have been what we think of as a "chest" --a large box which sits on the floor, it's contents stacked higgly-piggly inside-- but rather would have been a substantial piece of furniture, a large cabinet, with strong (lockable) doors and shelves inside to hold the metalwork, reliquaries, etc.
(Against this interpretation, however, might be the use of "coffre" to refer to the object, rather than "armoire." It's really an armoire that I have in mind.)
I know of no example of these which have survived from the middle ages in France, but have seen pictures of some in German churches and will try to find one on the web somewhere.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2007-06-22 12:28:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Although ordinary readers might think that "treasury" refers to the *money* which the church had on hand, it refers, of course, to the precious objects (usually in "minor arts" media, metalwork, ivories, perhaps even manuscripts) which the church possessed.
In today's larger churches it usually costs a few francs to "visite le tresor," a room in the church set aside for the display of the "treasury," which might include the ancient cabinet which originally contained it, if such survived.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2007-06-22 12:35:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Here's an 18th c. engraving of the "Tresor de Saint Denis" which conveys something of what I have in mind:
http://vrcoll.fa.pitt.edu/medart/image/France/sdenis/felebie...
However, I believe that this display reflects more of an early modern layout than would have been the case in the Middle Ages.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2007-06-22 12:40:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
A modern German "Schatzkammer" display (I'm still looking for a surviving "coffre":
http://www.meschede.de/kultur/sehenswuerdigkeiten/kernstadt_...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2007-06-22 14:55:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Here's the kind of armoire I have in mind:
http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/roe/roe16.jpg
and
http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/champeaux/champ36.jpg
Rather than something like this:
http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/roe/roe02.jpg
or
http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/roe/roe10-1.jpg
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2007-06-22 17:03:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
This "definition" of "fabrique" is not one which I am familiar with, but here goes:
In addition to the three altars and retables, the confessionals and several statues, the church has a cabinet holding the "fabric."
The term "fabric" refers to both the property of a parish and to the person in charge of its care. The archives, the metalwork and precious liturgical objects (ciborium chalice, etc.) were preserved in this kind of cabinet, the three locks corresponding to the division of power between the three different caretakers ("fabriciens") of these properties, each of whom would have one of the keys which could open the cabinet.
It's not clear to me from this if the "coffre" was a simple "chest" or the more elaborate "armoire"/cabinet I have in mind --this might depend upon the size of the church, its importance and the state of the survival of the objects concerned.
If it were simply a question of the "archives" (i.e., the written documents) belonging to the church, the object in question would be called (in U.K. English) a "muniments chest/cabinet."
In a large and substantial ecclesiastical institution (e.g., a cathedral) the Chancellor of the chapter would be in charge of those records.
But here you've apparently got other stuff as well, the metalwork and the liturgical impliments --these would probably be in the charge of the sacristan or "chefecier" (_capicerius_ in Latin).
Since you've got three locks, it sounds like all three fellows would have had to be present --with their keys-- to open the thing.
This is a security measure, necessary in a time in which lots of stuff that wasn't Nailed Down tended to Go Walkabout.
Note from asker:
Christopher - Thanks for all this amazing research. For info - the explanation *is* in my text. |
Discussion