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Wenjer Leuschel (X) 
Taiwan
Local time: 01:41
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Joyce Curran wrote:
主席已经是一个称呼了，再来一个“先生”有重复的感觉。我今天早上查了好久，就不明白应该怎样处理。而且，在这儿“尊敬地”也没有必要存在吗？
其實，你原譯的 "尊敬的院长先生，同事们，" 我原則上是不會動它的，但如果是我由翻譯則會用 "院長、各位同事"、"主席、各位同仁" 或 "議長、各位同仁"，那不過是個人偏好而已。"院長"、"議長" 其實都已是稱呼，實無必要再來個 "先生"，評卷者有他的偏好，出題時應該先說明清楚。
至於 "尊敬的"，我個人覺得無必要，但除非我有定稿權，否則我是不刪的。最令人受不了的審稿人就是那種譯者的每句話都要換言之的審稿人。
[Edited at 2005-07-28 15:31]
| | | | Joyce Curran
Local time: 18:41
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Chinoise wrote:
To Little Joyce,
对阿姨的那半点意见还满意吧？有空回个话。:)
别当我阿姨，做我姐姐！
如果考试时用笔，我绝对肯定还会写“附和”来代替“符合”，有时候提起笔写些想感慨的事情，却无法下手。祈祷没有寻新手的客户来这儿。
如果是“很多非常宝贵的建议”或“难能可贵的建议“会更好。
我发现自己在专攻词典，直到精疲力竭时，干脆开始瞎翻。你还会看到更多的，千万别忘了一一指出来。
| | | | Chinoise
Local time: 14:41
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其实，叫啥真的无所谓:) 。反正我跟Zhou Dan一般大，她认你这个妹，我也没不认之理:)。就叫俺Betty吧。
Joyce,读了你近期的帖子，感觉你的文笔还不错。如果真心想考个翻译执照，应该不是难事。根据我的（成功）经验:)，考试时一定要注意速度。当年跟我一起参加考试的几位老哥老姐，久经沙场却屡战屡败，究其原因，主要是速度不够，而非水平不行。所以，要考就�... See more 其实，叫啥真的无所谓:) 。反正我跟Zhou Dan一般大，她认你这个妹，我也没不认之理:)。就叫俺Betty吧。
Joyce,读了你近期的帖子，感觉你的文笔还不错。如果真心想考个翻译执照，应该不是难事。根据我的（成功）经验:)，考试时一定要注意速度。当年跟我一起参加考试的几位老哥老姐，久经沙场却屡战屡败，究其原因，主要是速度不够，而非水平不行。所以，要考就得趁早，要考就得考好。
Joyce Curran wrote: Chinoise wrote:
To Little Joyce,
对阿姨的那半点意见还满意吧？有空回个话。:)
别当我阿姨，做我姐姐！ 如果考试时用笔，我绝对肯定还会写“附和”来代替“符合”，有时候提起笔写些想感慨的事情，却无法下手。祈祷没有寻新手的客户来这儿。 如果是“很多非常宝贵的建议”或“难能可贵的建议“会更好。 我发现自己在专攻词典，直到精疲力竭时，干脆开始瞎翻。你还会看到更多的，千万别忘了一一指出来。 ▲ Collapse
| | | | Joyce Curran
Local time: 18:41
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Shaun Yeo wrote:
由于时间关系，我就提一下一点浅见，不再贴拙译献丑了：
-不幸的是，我市在处理有关足球暴力行为方面不仅有丰富的实际经验，而且有极丰厚的专业知识：个人觉得以“丰富的”和“极丰厚的”两组褒义形容词和“不幸的是”配搭，好像不太理想。不知道是不是可以用中性点的词汇，如“我市不得已在处理与足球相关的暴力罪行方面累积了大量的经验与专门知识，这确是一大憾事。”
-Away fixture:指的应是“客场赛期”吧？
-情报小组正在准备星期六就要举行的两场主赛：这就变成了该情报小组“筹备足球比赛”了，应该是“情报小组正为周六的两场重大比赛进行防暴工作（或类似加译）”吧？
-另外，主赛恐怕会被误解为“主场比赛”，还是译成重要、重大、关键比赛较稳当吧？
-参赛之一是法国的奥德姆versus Stoke市球队：这里明显的误读了吧？译成：“其中一场是法国的奥德姆对垒Stoke市”应该可以吧？
-known hooligans： known 和well-known是有差别的。known应该是指已知的流氓球迷，或已上了警方黑名单的球迷。可参考Ramsfield的已知的已知名句
- attacking people：“骚扰”(harass)似乎不到位，至少也要用“攻击”吧？
- In the UK we have pro-active football legislation to deal with our hooligan problems：这句或可译成：“在英国，警方得益于本国的足球法规，可采取先发制人的手法来处理……”
-最后一句的问题较大，你再看看怎么译，如何？其实，你大可采取顺译手法即可，无需颠倒词序。
我在译”Unfortunately, we have a wealth...in my city"时，就想不出为啥“我们既然又是经验又是知识”，还唠叨“Unfortunately”，我怎么也想不通应该如何表达才不失原句含义。
我还是不明白“Manchester United away fixtures and England away fixtures".
"Oldham versus Stoke city", 翻译时，我想这”Oldham“和”Stoke city“都应该是地名，却没有对”versus“加以任何考虑。以致后来的"the last time these two teams had met"让我忧愁到现在。
如果我老老实实的把最后一句为：“所以，如果有100名这种足球流氓来到奥德姆，他们将会被立即逮捕，因为他们已被禁止出席于任何赛场。”
“examiners' report" says the candidates showed a lack of knowledge of soccer world. 我查了好久，却毫无结果。
"European championship", "the Party of the European Socialists", "Euro'96"等，我从网上查到的。在考试时，不准上网，我是否应该现在就搜集各种Glossary?
[Edited at 2005-07-28 16:12]
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Joyce Curran
Local time: 18:41
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INIŢIATORUL SUBIECTULUI
Chinoise wrote:
其实，叫啥真的无所谓:) 。反正我跟Zhou Dan一般大，她认你这个妹，我也没不认之理:)。就叫俺Betty吧。
Joyce,读了你近期的帖子，感觉你的文笔还不错。如果真心想考个翻译执照，应该不是难事。根据我的（成功）经验:)，考试时一定要注意速度。当年跟我一起参加考试的几位老哥老姐，久经沙场却屡战屡败，究其原因，主要是速度不够，而非水平不行。所以，要考就得趁早，要考就得考好。
你和Zhou Dan一般大，说不定还是我妹妹呢。不过你们涉足翻译在先，我还是要称你们姐姐。
翻译时，我发现通读一遍，有些自信(不准发笑)。
打印出来，这笔却下不去，只好向字典求助，结果搞成坏习惯(Terry说我这架式看起来像翻译,有点知识分子的样子)。等一字一句弄完，自己也快疯狂了。
我把初译放到纸上，读回去，常常无法理解这可以叫“翻译”吗？而且，总是走进死胡同，怎么也找不到相对更贴切的字眼。应该责怪当初上学时，为了高考，死记硬背公式概念(推卸责任)。
今早在想到“议会”时，记得高中时背政治，涉及过这词。可是打死我也不知道怎样对付，赶紧到处读(还来得及么)。
| | | | Chinoise
Local time: 14:41
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Joyce,
考试时，应尽快完成初译。一定要留下至少30分钟，仔细检查有无漏译、误译、词不达意．．．．．．记住：每张试卷不能出三个以上的错误，否则，“欢迎下次光临！”:)（考官语）
今天就到这儿，老姐又得干“苦役（译）”去了:)．．．．．．
Joyce Curran wrote:
翻译时，我发现通读一遍，有些自信(不准发笑)。
打印出来，这笔却下不去，只好向字典求助，结果搞成坏习惯(Terry说我这架式看起来像翻译,有点知识分子的样子)。等一字一句弄完，自己也快疯狂了。
我把初译放到纸上，读回去，常常无法理解这可以叫“翻译”吗？而且，总是走进死胡同，怎么也找不到相对更贴切的字眼。应该责怪当初上学时，为了高考，死记硬背公式概念(推卸责任)。
今早在想到“议会”时，记得高中时背政治，涉及过这词。可是打死我也不知道怎样对付，赶紧到处读(还来得及么)。
[Edited at 2005-07-28 17:34]
| | | | Yi-Hua Shih
Taiwan
Local time: 01:41
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| 不好意思，插個花，下不為例 | Jul 28, 2005 |
dear Joyce,
昨個看到你貼出你的翻譯，我猜那是個IOL的考古題，既然我從沒看過它的考題，就趕快剪貼了原文，打算在讀你的譯文及各家意見之前，也來練習翻譯一下。對不住，現在借用你這地盤紀錄一下我的練習過程，希望你大人大量不介意！
昨天先花了十幾分鐘把原文讀一遍，沒查任何字典的情況下，雖然有些不懂的地方，大致還算了解意思。然後今天�... See more dear Joyce,
昨個看到你貼出你的翻譯，我猜那是個IOL的考古題，既然我從沒看過它的考題，就趕快剪貼了原文，打算在讀你的譯文及各家意見之前，也來練習翻譯一下。對不住，現在借用你這地盤紀錄一下我的練習過程，希望你大人大量不介意！
昨天先花了十幾分鐘把原文讀一遍，沒查任何字典的情況下，雖然有些不懂的地方，大致還算了解意思。然後今天得了空就來習作。我不確定IOL考試的時間是多長（以前上網看過一下但忘了），好像大概是兩小時、頂多兩小時半，所以我這原本龜毛的人拼了命規定自己要在兩小時內做完初譯。天幸，正好整整兩個小時，在電腦上譯完了整篇。我原本習用字典軟體直接查字，但沒敢打開，只用紙本字典；但是時間很緊，一點也沒辦法上網查證任何不懂的字眼，只能就我在紙本字典上查到的字印證我的理解與猜測，查不到的或專有名詞我就沒辦法了！
作完了功課才上來看你及各位前輩的原帖及留言，幫助我在還是沒查證資料前了解一下自己錯誤的地方。剛看到 Betty 說一個試卷不能超過三個錯、不然就下次再見，呵呵，看來要努力的路還很長。
發現我的譯文可能＜太口語化＞了，哈哈！其實我也沒進過立法院（議院）聽報告，還真不知道一般議員（台灣叫立法委員）的口吻會多官腔。不過老實說，我只管著埋頭趕譯，還真沒先想清楚這是議員的報告？還是某個情治單位主管的報告？（看了你後頭的補充說明才知道）所以在形式上是有點兒沒搞清楚，也只能夠就我看到的 plain 原文做最直接的翻譯而無暇做任何語意或文句的修飾了。
以下是我前兩個小時的努力成果：
Mr President, Colleagues,
主席，各位同仁：
Firstly I would like to inform the House that the PSE Group welcomes this report and the measures in it intended to prevent the activities of hooligans and organised thugs at matches. We will, however, need to monitor the way these monitoring centres carry out their functions to ensure that the football community is fully engaged in the exchange of information. Most important of all is the need to ensure adequate resourced both in financial and personnel terms.
首先我要知會議院，PSE團體對於本報告及其中所提出、用來防止球賽中暴力行為及計畫性刺殺行動的方法，十分歡迎。但我們仍需監督這些監控中心執行其任務的方式，以保證足球社群確實參與了交換情報的工作。最重要的是，必須確定我們在財務及人員編制方面都能獲得足夠的資源。
On Friday, I visited the football intelligence unit in Greater Manchester police service. Unfortunately, we have a wealth of experience and expertise in tacking football related violence in my city. The Assistant Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police has read this report and he welcomes the initiative in the light of what he calls “different standards in dealing, for example, with Manchester United away fixtures and England away fixtures”. On Friday, the unit was preparing for two key matches on Saturday. One of those was Oldham versus Stoke City: the last time these two teams had met, known hooligans had rampaged through the town, wrecking property and attacking people. In the UK we have pro-active football legislation to deal with our hooligan problems. This allows us to impose banning orders: so when a hundred of those fans arrived in Oldham, they were immediately arrested because they are banned from attending any matches. Those banning orders also apply to international matches.
上週五我拜訪了大曼徹斯特警方的足球情報小組。真是不幸，我的城市竟然對於處理與足球相關的暴力事件有這麼豐富的經驗與專業。大曼徹斯特區助理警政署長讀了這份報告，很喜歡其中所建議的手段，他將之理解為「對不同狀況採不同處理標準，例如曼徹斯特聯隊和英格蘭隊不在的賽程，就要有不同的標準。」禮拜五時，該小組正在為週六的兩場主要賽事預做準備。其中一場是Oldham對
Stoke City；上一回這兩隊碰頭時，已知的滋事份子在整個城裏到處作亂，破壞財物、攻擊人群。在英國，我們是有「預先防範足球賽滋事」的相關法令，來應付球迷鬧事問題。準此，我們能夠實施禁制令：如果有幾百個球迷群聚到Oldham，他們會馬上被逮補，因為法令禁止他們參加任何球賽。這個禁制令也同樣適用於國際性比賽。
The football intelligence unit has a sophisticated database of so-called “football prominents”, using the latest digital image technology to update and record cases. Let me tell you where the unit believes the EU information exchange system has to do better: 150 fans were deported from Charleroi in June 2000. among those arriving in Manchester airport were Belgian nationals, some of whom may not have been involved in hooliganism at all. Rounding up and deportation without prosecution does nothing to help the intelligence network on hooliganism. A list of the deportees was then sent to the intelligence unit: very useful as far as it went, but the accompanying report contained no information. Officers could not read it because it was not in English, and they could not act on it because the information did not allow for any further action due to prosecution or conviction. During Euro ’96, German fans arrived in Manchester. As a result of German data protection and privacy laws, no list of known hooligans could be passed on to the local intelligence forces and the officers working in the unit therefore had no information accessible in a usable formant to tackle the hooligans. So there is an issue here in that we do need to standardise our information formats while recognising that there are different cultures on policing and information collection across the EU.
足球情報小組有一套相當精良的資料庫，收集的是這些「足球名人」的資料，用上了最先進的數位影像科技，來持續搜錄事端。讓我告訴各位，該小組認為歐盟的情報交換系統什麼地方應該加強：2000年六月150個球迷在Charleroi被驅逐出境，當時抵達曼徹斯特機場的是比利時來的球迷，其中有些人可能從來沒有參與過暴動鬧事；把這些人全部集中起來驅逐出境而不起訴，對於防制球賽暴力的情報網一點幫助也沒有。被驅離者的名單送到了足球情報小組，這名單當然有它的用處，但是隨附的報告中什麼情資也沒有。這報告不是用英文寫的，所以警官們看不懂；而且因為沒有起訴或定罪，他們也不能利用那些資料來採取任何相應的後續動作。96年歐洲盃足球賽期間，德國球迷抵達曼徹斯特，但礙於德國的個人資料保護及隱私權相關法律，當地情治單位無法取得任何已知滋事份子的名單，足球情報小組的警官們因此拿不到有用的情報以茲打擊鬧事犯罪。所以說，我們的確需要把歐盟各國情資格式標準化，因為整個歐盟的確在警力作業及情資工作上有各種不同文化。
We need to deal with hooliganism pro-actively not re-actively. On the issue of cost, no doubt it would be useful to have a study on whether clubs should pay more for the policing of hooliganism. The difficulty is, however, who pays those costs after hours in cities where football hooligans are still engaged in activities.
對付暴力滋事，我們必須主動防範、而不能只是被動反應。關於經費問題，如果能研究一下各俱樂部是否應該付更多錢以支應防制鬧事的警力開銷，當然是很有用的。不過，難是難在，如果好幾個城市裏球迷滋事事件持續進行好幾個小時，誰來付這些費用？
In 2004 we will be hosting the final of the European championships at Old Trafford in Manchester. Our priority has to be to protect the law-abiding supporter and clamp down on hooligans who spoil the game, we need a practical, pro-active approach to information sharing for national monitoring centres. Their existence alone will not guarantee the end of football hooliganism. I therefore urge this House to adopt the report that we are discussing as it contains immensely valuable recommendations.
2004年歐洲冠軍盃決賽將在曼徹斯特Old Trafford城舉行，我們的首要任務是保護守法的球賽支持者，以及取締那些擾亂球賽的鬧事份子。國家監控中心需要有實際的、主動預防的手段，來執行情報分享工作。光有監控中心不足以保證終結足球暴力，因此我要促請議院採納我們所討論的這份報告，因為它提供了極有價值的諸多建議。 ▲ Collapse
| | | | Joyce Curran
Local time: 18:41
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Wenjer Leuschel wrote:
其實，你原譯的 "尊敬的院长先生，同事们，" 我原則上是不會動它的，但如果是我由翻譯則會用 "院長、各位同事"、"主席、各位同仁" 或 "議長、各位同仁"，那不過是個人偏好而已。"院長"、"議長" 其實都已是稱呼，實無必要再來個 "先生"，評卷者有他的偏好，出題時應該先說明清楚。
至於 "尊敬的"，我個人覺得無必要，但除非我有定稿權，否則我是不刪的。最令人受不了的審稿人就是那種譯者的每句話都要換言之的審稿人。
[Edited at 2005-07-28 15:31]
如果我通不过第一试卷，就没有机会试第二个(资本主义)。如果我通不过，小生这辈子只能视翻译为爱好，在夫君面前永无出头之日。就算很会marketing,也不知哪年哪月能有出头之日。况且我真的感到心虚，如果通不过考试，得到客户的时间将会延长很多。
天知道那个评卷人喜欢什么译法。只有投其所好，能让他/她高抬贵手，怜我爱翻译行业的深情厚意，放我一马，给我一个翻译的名号。
在这儿，咱们可以吵吵闹闹，直到有个结果。但是那三个小时，他们就有权利决定我是否应该继续。你说，我是不是应该趋炎附势，达到目的呢。
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wherestip
Statele Unite
Local time: 12:41
din chineză în engleză
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| One of the sentences | Jul 28, 2005 |
>>> The Assistant Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police has read this report and he welcomes the initiative in the light of what he calls “different standards in dealing, for example, with Manchester United away fixtures and England away fixtures”.
I kind of skimmed through both translations(Joyce's and stone118's), and would like to share my opinion on the interpretation of the above sentence. (I'm tempting fate here since I'm not even sure this is welcomed)
... See more >>> The Assistant Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police has read this report and he welcomes the initiative in the light of what he calls “different standards in dealing, for example, with Manchester United away fixtures and England away fixtures”.
I kind of skimmed through both translations(Joyce's and stone118's), and would like to share my opinion on the interpretation of the above sentence. (I'm tempting fate here since I'm not even sure this is welcomed)
Anyway, please consider it for what it's worth:
IMHO, the Assistant Chief Constable welcomes this initiative mainly because of its potential of addressing existing issues such as different games having different standards in dealing with hooliganism. In other words, in light of the fact that inconsistent standards exist, the Assistant Chief Constable is in favor of the report. Perhaps the report even points out the problem of this inconsistency in standards and cites some of these games as examples.
One of the main thrusts of this short speech is advocating information sharing and the standardization of information formats, not only across the UK, but also across Europe(to the extent it could be implemented). So having non-uniform standards is not a good thing and is something that needs to be addressed as far as the constable and PSE Group are concerned.
In addition, a report like this is highly unlikely to propose different standards for different football fixtures considering the enormity of work involved for proposals of such a specific nature. Yet making such a proposal is essentially how both of your Chinese translations have interpreted this sentence, I believe(of course not in these words).
I'd say that my reasoning is mainly based on the English. But I also think this interpretation makes more sense according to the whole of the context.
I wonder what everyone else thinks?
[Edited at 2005-07-29 05:14]
[Edited at 2005-07-29 05:30] ▲ Collapse
| | | | wherestip
Statele Unite
Local time: 12:41
din chineză în engleză
+ ...
| I was remiss not to say... | Jul 28, 2005 |
that both translations were done very well.
再接再厉，祝你们考试顺利成功。：）
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http://www.people.com.cn/GB/14677/22099/22244/1752165.html
BTW, I just found this out.
厉 just didn't look right to me, but that's what popped up when I typed ... See more that both translations were done very well.
再接再厉，祝你们考试顺利成功。：）
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http://www.people.com.cn/GB/14677/22099/22244/1752165.html
BTW, I just found this out.
厉 just didn't look right to me, but that's what popped up when I typed in "zaijiezaili". This morning I felt like editing it to 励 since that's the way I remembered 勉励. But apparently 人民网 is a higher authority on this type of thing.
[Edited at 2005-07-29 14:43] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Donglai Lou (X)
China
Local time: 01:41
din engleză în chineză
+ ...
不好意思。最近实在太忙，没能及时掺和。利用今天早晨的时间，踩着我哥（:)）的砖，再抛一块。对第三段中，我认为不妥之处，给出我的拙见。让大家见笑，请大家指教。
1．June, 2000: 中文的习惯是2000年6月或二零零零年六月。
2．Rounding up and deportation without prosecution does nothing to help the intelligence network on hooliganism
未经起诉的情况下，围捕和驱逐出境无益于�... See more 不好意思。最近实在太忙，没能及时掺和。利用今天早晨的时间，踩着我哥（:)）的砖，再抛一块。对第三段中，我认为不妥之处，给出我的拙见。让大家见笑，请大家指教。
1．June, 2000: 中文的习惯是2000年6月或二零零零年六月。
2．Rounding up and deportation without prosecution does nothing to help the intelligence network on hooliganism
未经起诉的情况下，围捕和驱逐出境无益于针对足球流氓行为的情报网络。
3．A list of the deportees was then sent to the intelligence unit:
随后，一份被遣者的名单被送到情报小组:
4．but the accompanying report contained no information.
但所附文件却未包含任何（根据上下文或可添加，有用/可用）信息。
5．Officer: 警员，译成办公人员可能也可以，
6．they could not act on it because the information did not allow for any further action due to prosecution or conviction
由于此类信息并未考虑到（并不支持，或无法实现）基于起诉或判罪的进一步行动，他们无法善加利用（此信息）。
7．As a result of German data protection and privacy laws, no list of known hooligans could be passed on to the local intelligence forces
鉴于德国数据保护和隐私（权）法，已知的足球流氓名单未能被送至当地情报小组。
8．and the officers working in the unit therefore had no information accessible in a usable formant to tackle the hooligans.
该小组（前后译法应一致，你在前面用小组，此地用情报局）的警员因不拥有可访问的易用格式信息，而无法应对足球流氓。
9．we do need to standardise our information formats while recognising that there are different cultures on policing and information collection across the EU.
在认可欧盟各国不同警务文化和信息收集方式的同时，标准化我们的信息格式。 ▲ Collapse
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想不透他们哪来的那么多时间。
Wenjer Leuschel wrote:
最令人受不了的審稿人就是那種譯者的每句話都要換言之的審稿人。
[Edited at 2005-07-28 15:31]
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Shaun Yeo
Local time: 01:41
din engleză în chineză
+ ...
东来老弟：
确实好久不见，俺有点儿想念起你来了:-)我想和你讨论下列两点：
Donglai Lou wrote:
2．Rounding up and deportation without prosecution does nothing to help the intelligence network on hooliganism
未经起诉的情况下，围捕和驱逐出境无益于针对足球流氓行为的情报网络。
我对法律不熟，但一般不是先捉了，才起诉吗？如是，那就无所谓"rounding-up without prosecution”（未经起诉的情况下，围捕……）了，也就是说"without prosecution”的用意不在修饰“围捕”这一动作了。那么，是不是可以译成：围捕足球流氓并不加起诉就将其驱逐出境……”？
7．As a result of German data protection and privacy laws, no list of known hooligans could be passed on to the local intelligence forces
鉴于德国数据保护和隐私（权）法，已知的足球流氓名单未能被送至当地情报小组。
或许可以改掉“被”字句？“……德国当局未能将已知的足球流氓名单送至……”
| | | | Donglai Lou (X)
China
Local time: 01:41
din engleză în chineză
+ ...
Libin, Ph.D. wrote:
想不透他们哪来的那么多时间。
小子是一个水平很差，且十分挑剔的审译。虽然总抱着尊重译者劳动之心，但每遇到混水摸鱼者时，总忍不住每一句都换言之，还美其名曰对客户负责，直至累吐血。最后，只得对审译项目敬而远之。
| | | | | away fixtures - 客场比赛 | Jul 29, 2005 |
客场比赛或客场赛事，有时候翻译中可简称为客场。
Fixtures有比赛的意思，即预先确定了日期的比赛。
Joyce Curran wrote:
我还是不明白“Manchester United away fixtures and England away fixtures".
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